Curse

Yamat · Nov 11, 2005, 07:50 AM // 07:50

^^ LOL @ Whosaidwhatnow. You claim to have spent 100+ hours playing your Ele and then come out and say this patch has made Ele's useless? Dude, have you read any of the Ele spells apart from Meteor Shower?

This patch is great.. they finally fixed the AoE bug. I mean, come on... who stands in AoE spells for 10 seconds? Smarter AI makes for a better game. Period.

It will also slow down solo-ing (note, it slows it down, it doesn't remove it), reducing the amount of gold coming in to the economy, which is also good because the value of gold seems to be falling rapidly.

Snares FTW... they're finally making PvE closer to PvP... now people will actually have to start learning to play their characters...

Amused Observer · Nov 11, 2005, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by fawgre

It's not that I'm opposed to having the AI scatter under the effect of AoEs. It makes perfect sense for the AI to detect high amounts of concentrated damage and then run the hell out of there. This, on principle, I am not opposed to.

However.

I am opposed to ANet suddenly deciding, 6 months into it, that they want to change a very basic premise of the game. No warning, no explanations, still no official word on the patch or any potential tweaks or fixes, they just randomly throw in the update and wait for chaos to erupt. This can't even really be compared to any of the other dramatic updates so far. Chests now have keys... does that really change the basic strategies I use to interact with the environment? Prot Bond isn't horribly broken anymore, again, does this effect anyone besides on some very uninventive farmers?

This is also not a "PvE" update and we shouldn't be calling it that. This patch was not introduced because they wanted to make PvE more challenging. How many people here are already done with the game? Two times over, three times over? How many honest-to-God new people do we really have going through the game right now? Does it matter to anyone in this thread that the Ring of Fire missions are harder now? Who cares, I'll just skip them, I already have the Titan quest on my other two characters! This was a farming update, just a really, really broad-sweeping one. Solo farming was essentially whacked in the face (not to say that it can't be done, I was doing it earlier, it's just a lot longer and a slightly more challenging) along with SF farming. Anyone try getting a group today? One Meteor Shower and both my monks are dead. I tried my damnest to hold any sort of aggro whatsoever only to watch every single enemy pass me up and "scatter" right back to my casters. There is no "protection" anymore, there is no "body-blocking," every single enemy just "scatters" right on back to the backlines and there's nothing I can do about it.

GG Anet.

This is probably the best post (that I've read so far) summmarizing the effects of the AoE-AI nerf. The rules of engagement in a pve against mobs have changed significantly as a result. W/o AoEs, nuking is virtually dead. Eles will have to shift gears to spiking (dealing significant damage to one target in a very short time and hope a W is nearby to finish off the mob). Smiting will be a specialty in and of itself (when to use ZF to cause scattering from which party member).

strcpy · Nov 11, 2005, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

I just remember all the solo monks standing in ToA after the Prot Bond nerf saying "oh man, healing is gonna cost people now," doing lots of chest thumping about how everyone would quit GW if they didnt reverse it. *looks around* Looks like you're all still here. The update isn't bad. I didn't redesign my build, and I went out and got Drago's Flat Bow today. It makes PvE much more interesting, not impossible.

GW just became my favorite game because you can no longer easily steamroll all the mobs with a couple nukers.

Here is the difference:

On the day the invici-monk is nerfed. A few hundred people log into GW and go about thier normal business and - Uhh Ohh. Something isn't right. These few hundred complain that they, and thus, others will quit. Ok GW can handle that. The amount of money and knowlede needed was great enough that non-casual gamers were the target, only highly specialised ones.

Today, 10's of thousands of AoE based people log on, many simply casual gamers who do not read boards, do not keep up with the build of the day, simply just play the game. They go and die. And die, and die, and die. They realise that thier entire build is now wrong and there is no real way to fix it. Sure, maybe the fire ele nuker is the province of the noobs, but to tell all these people "play an air ele" sucks as much as if the nerfed airs to the point that the reply is "Well, play a fire ele" (or replace it with a build you do not want to play). This isn't a narrow, specific nurf - but a broad one against even one of the official builds.

How many are going to spend the next few hours, or even maybe days, pouring over skills, figuring new class combinations (how many are ascended and can easily change?)? Or how many get frustrated and quit.

An update that affects a very small percentage vs one that makes almost every fire ele and every smiting monk MUCH less usefull (arguable even worthless) are going to hang around. Especially given that some of the *official builds* are now either ineffective or take so much skill to play that the casual gamer can not.

Dunno, I have enough other chars I will just change. Not really that big a deal. It's just irritating. Had this happened before I become totally hooked? Had I come in after this and never knew? I don't know. I do know, however, that this breaks quite a bit of what Anet claims. Personally I think they didn't fully test this outside of thier listed goals. It's easy to do, I've done it in the past and present (in fact, I read the update notes and went "Yay" until I played the game) and will do it again. I've seen it called "The Law of Unintended Consequences".

Yamat · Nov 11, 2005, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amused Observer

This is probably the best post (that I've read so far) summmarizing the effects of the AoE-AI nerf. The rules of engagement in a pve against mobs have changed significantly as a result. W/o AoEs, nuking is virtually dead. Eles will have to shift gears to spiking (dealing significant damage to one target in a very short time and hope a W is nearby to finish off the mob). Smiting will be a specialty in and of itself (when to use ZF to cause scattering from which party member).

*sigh*

Snare + Nuke. Water + Fire.

Magicmaster315 · Nov 11, 2005, 07:55 AM // 07:55

I did i spent 200 hrs on that char. Theres no useful way to use her now and if i did change her, because of the increse in cost to buy spells ill go broke buying the ones i shouldnt have to be buying.

Whosaidwhatnow · Nov 11, 2005, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

^^ LOL! You claim to have spent 100+ hours playing your Ele and then come out and say this patch has made Ele's useless? Dude, have you read any of the Ele spells apart from Meteor Shower?

This patch is great.. they finally fixed the AoE bug. I mean, come on... who stands in AoE spells for 10 seconds? Smarter AI makes for a better game. Period.

It will also slow down solo-ing (note, it slows it down, it doesn't remove it), reducing the amount of gold coming in to the economy, which is also good because the value of gold seems to be falling rapidly.

I didn't say it made the Ele's useless

I said it made echo nuking useless, which is my BUILD. I still use this char as an air spiker, but it totally defeats the purpose of using him in PvE. Thats what I said, thats what I meant.

Sarus · Nov 11, 2005, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Come on people ... listen to what you're saying here. You guys are complaining that they improved the AI!!! You should be happy that you actually have to put a little thought into beating PvE mobs now.

Hopefully this will also teach people to not bring firestorm into tombs and randomly cast it on people out in the open.

Batou of Nine · Nov 11, 2005, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

Quote:

Originally Posted by batou of nine

The Good First::
Forces people to stop relying on the same old builds.
Forces people to learn more about the dynamics of GW gameplay.
Enforces a stronger idea of community through lowered amounts of mindless killing (i.e. Nuking, etc), which in turn forces parties to talk more, strategize(sp?), and plan.
Increase in Henchmen AI is never a bad thing!

Sorta agree. The problem, as I see, it basically a form of elitism. People say it seperates the good form the bad - do you really think that doing this is good for this game (that's not aimed at you Batou, but to those who said this). Especially given that GW's model depends on those noobs purchasing the game. Most out there are the noobs and getting rid of them will kill a game. Beware that you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Well, im glad people are coming back to the big picture, with which i was trying to focus on. Cept on thing, that bolded part of your quote, i never said that or eluded to it. It isnt elitism because as you said, new players will know it as normal, will learn to play as it is now. Basic builds will always exist, but my "good" highlights are just a few aspects that will boost GW community.

That being said, as people can see my "bad" list outways my "good" list because i do not "really think that doing this(patch) is good for this game".
((Btw, i know you werent flaming/focusing on me, i just wanted to clear up my opinion to others

)

To all the other posters out there, LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE!!!! Too many people are complaining about a specific class becoming useless, or a skill they cant use efficiently any longer... This patch is a detriment to the WHOLE GAME... >>REFER TO POST #325 for all teh reasons<<... I will reiterate for teh lazy ones::

Detriments affect Economy, Player Base (both veteran and new), PvE and PvP dividend, and the lasting of the GW community as a whole... want more details... Post #325...

lol sorry i dont wanna type it all out again...

Magicmaster315 · Nov 11, 2005, 07:57 AM // 07:57

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. . . . . deja vu. . . viva la france!!!! Storm the Bastile i mean Lions Arch!!

MultimediaJay · Nov 11, 2005, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Yeah. Boohoo finally to the snobs who were like, "TOO MANY WARRIORS. KIK WARRIOR." I just did Perdition Rock with Henchies and the henchies did a better job than most of the human teams I've joined in the past two days.

Justice is served. Warrior-dissers beware.

Samueldg · Nov 11, 2005, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

^^ LOL @ Whosaidwhatnow. You claim to have spent 100+ hours playing your Ele and then come out and say this patch has made Ele's useless? Dude, have you read any of the Ele spells apart from Meteor Shower?

This patch is great.. they finally fixed the AoE bug. I mean, come on... who stands in AoE spells for 10 seconds? Smarter AI makes for a better game. Period.

It will also slow down solo-ing (note, it slows it down, it doesn't remove it), reducing the amount of gold coming in to the economy, which is also good because the value of gold seems to be falling rapidly.

Snares FTW... they're finally making PvE closer to PvP... now people will actually have to start learning to play their characters...

Do a search on e-bay...

there is where the gold will be coming from in mass quantity... since the regular joe farmer just got hit with a nerf now all the lil masses of EULA abusing companies who make profit from intangable items in the game will continue to farm with even more bots and from this anyone who is trying new dye mixes. etc etc.. now has a 1k PER hour ratio ( based on me doing fire islands missions with 8 ppl) instead of 9k per hour farming griffons.

where it not a total underhanded approch Id almost accuse anet of BEING the ones selling gold on ebay..
but that would be too much like american government atm...

the value of gold, items, ecto everything is about to skyrocket.. there is a GREAT DEAL of plat out there....Ref; beta vets who still play this game/ companies who farm..

the amount of playing time for items, ecto and plat just increased almost tenfold... hench the value of everything will also increase.

party1 · Nov 11, 2005, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whosaidwhatnow

Yeah, great! Let's make the monsters as smart as any human, albeit with twice the HP, hitting for twice the amount of damage, level 28, etc., and swarms three times the size of any PvP team you'll ever come up against. Thats a good idea, because I don't ever want to get past the first three swarms in FoW again.

If you want smart opponents, play PvP.

totaly agree...

they really dropped the ball with this update

now i'm pretty sure i wont buy chapter 2

Jaia Shadowless · Nov 11, 2005, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

It will also slow down solo-ing (note, it slows it down, it doesn't remove it), reducing the amount of gold coming in to the economy, which is also good because the value of gold seems to be falling rapidly.

Snares FTW... they're finally making PvE closer to PvP... now people will actually have to start learning to play their characters...

The value of gold is dropping because of websites that sell gold for real cash. This update will likely encourage that, since it discourages simple solo farming as you said.

I'm still really disturbed by the number of people that have this completely arrogant and snobby attitude that anyone who plays a popular or so-called noob build hasn't "learned to play their character." I have played GW for 400+ hours, I have a M/N, a Mo/M and a W/R in addition to my fire ele -- I just have a great time playing her. Fire is entertaining to me. What's the problem?

It really sickens me to see so many people in agreement that they know the real, the smart, the cool way to play GW, and everyone else is retarded. I had no idea the community at large was filled with such elitist bastards.

Whosaidwhatnow · Nov 11, 2005, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarus

Come on people ... listen to what you're saying here. You guys are complaining that they improved the AI!!! You should be happy that you actually have to put a little thought into beating PvE mobs now.

Hopefully this will also teach people to not bring firestorm into tombs and randomly cast it on people out in the open.

What does that have to do with anything? How does NPC AI affect what players do in PvP? AOE has never been viable in PvP since you can just move... you'd have to be clueless from the start to waste a slot on AOE in a PvP match. Unless you're talking about people bringing henches into the tombs, this post makes no sense to me.

Second, I don't want to think and strategize for two hours to make 500 gold and split it with my 8 party members. If I wanted a grind I have plenty of other games to choose from.

Yamat · Nov 11, 2005, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

The Bad::

1. Succesfully eliminates efficient farming, causing huge detriments to the economy.
2. Due to decrease in farming efficiency, an increase in cost for ALL items from rare materials to rare items will occur.
3. The whole game has now shifting into the hands of GW veterans, with heavy change in AI, AND ecnomy, new players will easily become discouraged from playing.
4. Due to heavy increase in all economy trades/sales, new players will have no way of participating in the GW trade community due to incredibly high starting costs.
5. Many veteran/bored players, who now play only to farm, no longer have motivation to play, and therefore GW loses more player base.
6. Summation:: Those specific two update changes are going to hurt the GW community through loss of new player base and loss of veteran player base. It also will BADLY change the trade community in the near future as farmers realize how much their efficiency has dropped.

Economics 101. Amount of money in the system increases = inflation. Farming brings more money into the system. Q.E.D.

Yamat · Nov 11, 2005, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaia Shadowless

The value of gold is dropping because of websites that sell gold for real cash. This update will likely encourage that, since it discourages simple solo farming as you said.

If farmers can't get gold, where will these people get it from to be able to sell?

Jaia Shadowless · Nov 11, 2005, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

If farmers can't get gold, where will these people get it from to be able to sell?

Bots. Sweatshop farmers. Plus, a lot of it still exists on eBay.

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Nov 11, 2005, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Few spells I've tested thus far. These three are from my own bar.

Chaos Storm: Dead.

With Fast Cast I can hit a group once, for weak damage, and one little energy drain. I can understand the more powerful AoE spells getting effected by this. Chaos Storm was weak, and only useful for helping out the warriors aggroing big mobs. Its now gone. The spell that made me love being a mesmer is dead. Yay...

Energy Surge:

Still works. In fact, usually they detect it and all run away together in the same direction. So it still hits all of them. Sometimes they dont run away at all. So I get a single hit energy drain for max damage. Yet another reason Chaos Storm is useless. I can do the same thing for one hit with energy surge as I could with Storm now, and do more damage and drain more energy.

Chain Lightning: This one seems uneffected. But I'm a mesmer with Fast Cast, so it may not be that way for Aeros. Basically they cant run away fast enough to get out of the area of the Chain. Combine Chain with Thunderclap, and you're going to stop them from running away entirely.

thief · Nov 11, 2005, 08:06 AM // 08:06

playing alot.

Yamat · Nov 11, 2005, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaia Shadowless

Bots. Sweatshop farmers. Plus, a lot of it still exists on eBay.

It will decrease drammatically because the sweatshop farmer will have to work twice as hard (or more) to get the same amount.